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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 18:10:38 GMT -7
He's not schooling anyone. You got schooled and earned your dunce cap. And you earned the troll cap and the ignorant cap. One smart person in this conversation. One uses old ideology and says if you make income your middle class. The other says if your not creating income and your hording, your not helping the economy. And then posts are made that prove my point and you say that sites that deal with income are wrong and somehow some wannabe smart guy on the internet is correct and everyone else is wrong. You earned king ignorance with blowhard tactics in my book. There ya go. Feel free to feel I am a dunce, because your thoughts mean nothing to me. Ye who is one person in over 300 million who feels he knows more then people who specialize in a specific area. Troll!
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Post by ranger06 on Apr 1, 2017 19:11:25 GMT -7
You got schooled and earned your dunce cap. And you earned the troll cap and the ignorant cap. One smart person in this conversation. One uses old ideology and says if you make income your middle class. The other says if your not creating income and your hording, your not helping the economy. And then posts are made that prove my point and you say that sites that deal with income are wrong and somehow some wannabe smart guy on the internet is correct and everyone else is wrong. You earned king ignorance with blowhard tactics in my book. There ya go. Feel free to feel I am a dunce, because your thoughts mean nothing to me. Ye who is one person in over 300 million who feels he knows more then people who specialize in a specific area. Troll! You've already been shown to be a troll and almost since the begining of this thread, ingorant. You've posted several times Smith's chart but are oblivious to the fact that what was shown is wealth and income vs population. Wealth and income are terms you show no comprehension of, and worse, no inclination of wanting to understand them. Now you claim a close relationship of the SSA data which is taxable income only with a chart that has intregrated total income and wealth. You still haven't figured out the difference between the middle class, the lower class and the poor. And speaking of ignorance, where are your vauted Replican talking points. Mar 31, 2017 at 8:36pm or did you lie about these too? "...you say that sites that deal with income are wrong..." No, I wrote that you are wrong for using those sites. It would help that you concentrate on reading comprehension for once.
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Post by ranger06 on Apr 1, 2017 19:14:20 GMT -7
Three times you wrote that you were done. Is this your inner troll showing, your inability not to lie, or all of the above? No wonder you're so confused.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 20:04:44 GMT -7
Three times you wrote that you were done. Is this your inner troll showing, your inability not to lie, or all of the above? No wonder you're so confused. A troll very clearly wants to keep things going for his/her own entertainment. And learn how to quote. I can't figure if I said what your saying or not because you are not quoting me right. Conversation 101. Now, I have tried to end this and I will quote me saying so the correct way: And instead of agreeing to disagree, you write this: And every time I said I was leaving, in typical troll fashion, you used argumentative tactics to lure me back in: And you accuse me of crying, like a troll. I'm not crying you fool, I'm using facts to make you butthurt. I have said over and over and over and over and over and over again, THE MIDDLE CLASS IS NOT CREATING OPPORTUNITY WHEN HISTORICALLY THEY DID! And you don't understand, you don't get it. But I am a crying dunce liar? Your a troll and you will try and find a way to continue this. If I am so dumb, why would you feel like you need to waste your time showing me "facts" when you feel like I don't understand? Of course I am going to respond when a slanderous insinuation like liar is slung. Or when you accuse me of crying which no one is doing. And of course you know this. This is childish rhetoric where a Centrist vs. a Republican. Republicans historically represent old ideology and that is what you are doing here. The people from the baby boomer generation who worked and paid their way through college when college was much cheaper. The people who wear blinders when it comes to cost and just believe they did it and so can everyone else. The generation that come home after World War 2 and had every opportunity in the world because the middle class created those opportunities. A generation that worked and was middle class and they improved the economy by creating. Your missing that whole thing, all of it. You belief is that if your working your middle class. Walmart workers are the largest population of food stamp recipients, are they middle class? Because food stamps is means tested here. But according to old ideology they are in your book. If the top earner in a country makes 1 billion dollars a year and the bottom person makes nothing, where is the middle class? Anyone around 500 million dollars is middle class. How many people in this country make that much? Your looking at people that make 60 grand a year and calling them middle class. I don't live in a old fashioned utopia where old numbers represent things because they don't. But you do. You want to feel all cozy and feel like your middle class. Fine, feel that way and that is fine. Don't press your false ideology on the world. Real people with no illusions are drowning. Keep your illusions with places that promote those illusions to yourself. Those illusions are not the fact of the matter.
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Post by ranger06 on Apr 1, 2017 21:05:08 GMT -7
But I am a crying dunce liar? Your words. Since the shoe fits.... A troll very clearly wants to keep things going for his/her own entertainment - even after three times he said he was done. Is this your inner troll showing, your inability not to lie, or all of the above? There is no lure. You can't help yourself. No wonder you're so confused. No, I did not accuse you of crying, like a troll. I just accused you of crying. You started crying on page one but trolling on page 3. "Your [sic] looking at people that make 60 grand a year and calling them middle class." Actually Pew Research in the link I provided Mar 28, 2017 at 10:01pm and given the data you provided Mar 29, 2017 at 8:01pm and I ran on Mar 29, 2017 at 10:23pm says that people that make $60K/yr are middle class. Go bark at Pew Research and the Census Bureau for using "old numbers" for this May 2016 article. I'd like to see their response when you accuse them of using your vaunted Republican talking points. Here's another Pew chart by state showing the same. $60K/yr household income is middle class for every one of them. Your gal buddy was a sole income of her household. Those Republican talking points sure are pervasive. twocents.lifehacker.com/the-salary-required-to-be-middle-class-in-every-state-1695393156More Republican talking points as yet again here's another Pew chart showing a family of 3 only needs $41,869/yr to make the middle. If that total is made by one or more the result is the same. www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/the-american-middle-class-is-losing-ground/st_2015-12-09_middle-class-02/There is no agree to disagree, as what you've been writing is wrong. Understand yet?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2017 21:23:54 GMT -7
OMG, how can I be so stupid. Your so right. No one is struggling and the middle class is as good as it has ever been.
Lord ranger06, you out witted me. My data is such a lie. How could I be so foolish? College is cheap and insurance deductibles are awesome. How can I be so foolish.
I will placate you for your entertainment Lord ranger06.
But this has been fun. I am going to find a cave to crawl into, I should be ashamed seeing the problems of today when there was not problem at all. Thanks so much, you have enlightened me in ways you cannot imagine.
Better?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 1:39:19 GMT -7
Now that I had a little fun, I'm gonna punch all kinds of holes into your data. Back in the early 1960s and before, the highest tax rate was 91%. The owner of a company only made 20 times the amount of money as their lowest wage worker. We will use a factory here as an example. So, the janitor would have been the low man in this factory. Let's say the top paid man was the foreman. What the janitor made one quarter the amount the owner made in wages. On the other hand, the foreman made half of what the owner made. The foreman was the middle class in this situation. And of course, there was a spread. So even the foreman had workers under him whom made only 55 percent lower wages then the owner of the company. That worker would still be middle class and I would even argue that the janitor could be considered middle class (compared to today). Then comes tax breaks for the rich. That 20 times becomes 30, then 40, then 50 and this keeps going up to where we are today. Which is the owner of this same factory could be making 296 times what his employees make. But the old ideology has stuck around. Even though the top earners of this country make 296 times the lowest wage workers, we still call people who make a little more then they did in the 60s middle class. Why does all the research sites seem to still talk about a striving middle class then? Welcome to a fiat currency. A fiat currency is backed by faith. That piece of paper in your wallet holds no value on its own. It only has value because people have faith in that paper. All this information is out there and can be proven if one opens their eyes. So before the mid 1960s the middle class made around half of what the owner of a company earned. So to keep up with the same ideology, a worker today would have to make about half of what a company makes. $60K is not that number and nowhere near that number. Now back to our fiat currency. The government and the people in charge (banks and the rich) love that we keep that old idea around. If it wasn't for that old idea, people would realize there is likely no hope and they would lose faith in the currency. If people lose faith in the currency the economy fails. This talks a bit about it: www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/Of course still touting a middle class though. In my eyes, if we are going to talk about middle class today, we are talking about someone who owns a chain of fast food joints. Old ideology does not make something true, math is a good start. And I almost forgot, here's a little video:
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Post by ranger06 on Apr 2, 2017 7:32:38 GMT -7
Now that I had a little fun, I'm gonna punch all kinds of holes into your data. It's not my data. You failed to notice that my name isn't on the credit line. Your tome has nothing to do with the discussion. You still failed to understand how the middle class is defined, much less lower class and poverty. How those in that class spend their money is immaterial. Now your understanding wealth looks to be an impossible dream. It wasn't all that long ago that my household income for a family of 4 was in that $60K/yr bracket. Yes, we were middle class and were at the 50% mark. We also had all needs met with far too many wants getting in the way. This country gives you the right to fail. My family refused that option.
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Post by snakebit on Apr 2, 2017 7:54:23 GMT -7
Obviously there are any number of ways to define "poor". To me net worth is one of the most telling. By that measure certainly 40% of Americans are poor.
Rangers post stating that both he and a son are collecting disability payments brought to mind an article I read somewhere recently.
In many, particularly poor and rural, areas of the country where jobs are scarce or non existent apparently entire families, parents and adult children, are living together and existing on disability payments.
All in all the article painted a pretty grim and depressing picture of another side of poverty in America.
I suppose this is inevitable as welfare, food stamps etc are cut drastically people will have to find new ways to survive.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 8:27:28 GMT -7
Now that I had a little fun, I'm gonna punch all kinds of holes into your data. It's not my data. You failed to notice that my name isn't on the credit line. Your tome has nothing to do with the discussion. You still failed to understand how the middle class is defined, much less lower class and poverty. How those in that class spend their money is immaterial. Now your understanding wealth looks to be an impossible dream. It wasn't all that long ago that my household income for a family of 4 was in that $60K/yr bracket. Yes, we were middle class and were at the 50% mark. We also had all needs met with far too many wants getting in the way. This country gives you the right to fail. My family refused that option. Please try and understand, I don't want to fight anymore. You and I were talking about two separate things this whole time. Please hear me out. There are numbers that represent our income and other numbers that represent our buying power. What I have been trying to say is the economic buying power of the at ounce middle class is gone. This can be seen in who is buying up this country, the rich. The middle class is failing in the old ideology. Regulations are benefiting the rich and making it much harder for everyone else. That's why I brought up the MSM in a earlier post. Back in the 60s it was owned by over 20 people, today it is owned by six. As the rich buys up more companies that the old ideological middle class used to own, more is paid to the top for these things while the income in the middle shrinks. Watch the video and it is easy to see why were arguing. Sorry for bad things I said to you. But we either get over old ideology to make the world better for our children, or we allow our children to grow up in a world were income inequality is going to get worse. Trickle down economics never created a job and Trump is getting ready to double down on it. Meanwhile the great devide grows much bigger. I don't consider a person making $60K a year to be middle class today. It's not the economic middle. And my going on about 55% being poor, they are economically poor. They are working for the rich, getting paid, giving their earned money to the rich with no opportunity to help and grow the economy from an old ideology standpoint, regulation and costs and and money forbids it. If your older, think back to the 60s,70s and even 80s. There was business everywhere and there was a middle class family running it. Now they close the doors all the time. Even big retailers like K-Mart can't compete in this economy. Amazon (another rich company) is placing that nail in that coffin. The rich is killing what was at one time the middle class.
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Post by ranger06 on Apr 2, 2017 9:18:09 GMT -7
Please try and understand, I don't want to fight anymore. Good to hear. It doesn't matter that you consider $60K/yr being middle class. It's driven by statistics. Doesn't matter that you consider 55% being poor. That's driven by established definitions. Do they have food, clothing and shelter? All else is merely wants, not needs. I wrote before "I really don't care that the top earners in the country are making billions a year. Good for them. I care what I'm making and that me and mine are taken care of for food, clothing and shelter. All else is a want, not a need." Mar 29, 2017 at 7:28am I don't get excited over class envy. The business owners took the risk in the investment and time. Those wanting to join those ranks have a hard row to hoe. But be warned, the vast majority of these new starts fail. This isn't a new trend. That K-Mart is failing is no surprise. Sears is too. Sears built their empire on the revolving credit card debt plan my parents used. Folks learned not to carry a balance. Competition is a harsh mistress. Now as to the shrinking middle class - is it really bad? www.pewsocialtrends.org/2015/12/09/the-american-middle-class-is-losing-ground/st_2015-12-09_middle-class-03/The chart shows a net loss in the middle class of 11% between 1971 t0 2015. First impression is bad mojo. But look again, where did these 11% go. The lowest class increased by 4%, the lower middle class didn't change. 4% of the middle class dropped into these levels. As populations move back and forth between class all the time this can be expected, but not so good for those that did drop for whatever reason. Now there is still 7% to be accounted. Where did they go? The upper middle class gained 2%. Good! Better, the highest class gained 5%. WOW. Note that this is household income. What changed from 1971 to 2015? Some researchers do recognize that there are more wage earners per family now than what existed in the 70's. The husband being the earner was the norm. Now both work is the norm. There should be more reasons than this.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 10:58:38 GMT -7
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Post by ranger06 on Apr 2, 2017 17:17:20 GMT -7
According to She Who Must Be Obeyed I never stop playing!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2017 18:08:22 GMT -7
Please try and understand, I don't want to fight anymore. I wrote before "I really don't care that the top earners in the country are making billions a year. Good for them. I care what I'm making and that me and mine are taken care of for food, clothing and shelter. All else is a want, not a need." Mar 29, 2017 at 7:28am I don't get excited over class envy. That is a very interesting way to look at it and made me do some self reflection. By statistics, my family is poor. I am disabled but we are buying a home, we eat, have 2 low mileage cars, I'm typing this on a computer, have 4 televisions, a place to cook, a place to sit and eat, a shower... That's a very good point. Perhaps instead of getting caught up in numbers, I should learn to be thankful for the things I do have. Wow, thanks but self reflection is never fun. But what you say does make sense.
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