|
Post by hoofie on Jul 15, 2019 11:59:52 GMT -7
The current group running for POTUS is so far left is there a winner in the bunch? The most centrist is Biden but he keeps shuffling left a little each news cycle, and, he still steps on his own messages. Can we have a civilized discussion about this?
Free healthcare for illegal aliens? I just can't wrap my head around this as I pay hundreds of dollars every month for mine. Most of the other planks are as mind boggling and no one can say how it will be paid for.
Trump would be a slam dunk for reelection if he would stop behaving like a spoiled 7th grader in public.
|
|
ranger06
New Member
Posts: 249
Member is Online
|
Post by ranger06 on Jul 15, 2019 16:45:38 GMT -7
I like what Trump is doing. He makes me think of a modern Teddy Roosevelt.
|
|
|
Post by jiminix on Jul 16, 2019 15:13:42 GMT -7
I have to chuckle every time I hear conservatives, libertarians, Republicans, and Trumpites rail about “leftists”, “socialists”, “communists”, etc. I remember a time when these words had a meaning. Now they are just dog whistles. They would call Eisenhower a socialist if he were still around to advocate 1955 Republican values.
It’s not the Wild West anymore. The cowboy mystique is a myth perpetuated to the blue collar working class to get them to support unregulated exploitation of themselves by the business aristocracy.
When I was a kid, it was up to homeowners to put a concrete curb and gutter along the edge of the street in front of their houses. Some did it and some didn’t. Years later the city did it and taxed everybody to pay for it. Is this socialism? Certainly not. It is progress, and everyone benefits.
A nation collectively makes its prosperity. American does not have its level of prosperity because of the genius of a few people. We have it because historically and collectively we have chosen rule of law and the common good above a self-proclaimed profligate “right” or “freedom” to do anything, regardless of the harm it does to other individuals or groups.
I meant this post to address hoofie’s comments, but it’s too late now. I’ll do it in another message.
|
|
|
Post by jiminix on Jul 16, 2019 15:26:36 GMT -7
Hoofie, it’s easier to understand Democratic positions if you look at where they are coming from. That’s why I got off the particulars and into the generalities in that previous message.
Free health care when needed for all who can’t pay is the fundamental principle. It’s not a matter of preferring some other group of people over you. Everyone is included. In fact, we want free health care regardless of ability to pay; getting adequate health care should not require a sacrifice in a prosperous democratic nation. It benefits the nation - the nation should willingly bear the cost.
When a nation creates wealth for itself, a direction must be taken, whether to hoard that wealth in an aristocratic class like Saudi Arabia, or to establish a broad middle class that can live comfortably and productively (but not lavishly) from birth to death. We know what direction Donald Trump wants to go.
Another policy a lot of Democratic candidates are talking about is free college. When I went to the U. of Texas, my tuition was $75 per semester. Almost universally, people believed that education was the #1 civic responsibility of government. They didn’t expect universities to make a profit.
Look at it this way: we already have free high school, and most people support this. The world has become more technological and now people need more education than they get in high school to prepare for productive careers and financially secure lives. It’s a natural progression; none of my relatives of my parents’ generation went to college; their parents didn’t finish high school.
How do we pay for it? It’s actually financially easy; it’s only the political will that’s lacking. The top tax rate under Eisenhower was 95%, and the complaints from the wealthy were virtually non-existent compared to now. The Republican Party has boxed itself in to be nothing but the “tax cut party”. It’s their religion; they would have no substance at all to talk about if they acknowledged that we don’t need any more tax cuts.
I actually intend to write short posts when I start, but I’m obvious losing that battle.
|
|
|
Post by jiminix on Jul 16, 2019 15:27:11 GMT -7
Ranger06, I’m curious. What exactly do you like that Trump is doing?
|
|
|
Post by hoofie on Jul 17, 2019 5:15:35 GMT -7
........ We know what direction Donald Trump wants to go. ........ Please elaborate, because I see him trying to improve the economy by helping businesses create jobs. The easing of regulations on businesses. Easing taxes has helped businesses grow and expand. It's not kingdom building if Americans are going back to work and his policies are geared more toward protecting American interests. What has Trump said or done to make you think he wants to be like Saudi Arabia?
|
|
ranger06
New Member
Posts: 249
Member is Online
|
Post by ranger06 on Jul 17, 2019 7:55:12 GMT -7
Ranger06, I’m curious. What exactly do you like that Trump is doing? Hoofie pretty well nailed it.
Like Trump,Teddy wasn't the GOP's fair-haired child. In fact the powers that be in own state of NY wanted him out as their gov. VPOTUS looked safe until McKinley was assassinated and Teddy became the stodgy GOP's worst nightmare. He pushed them in so many areas and brought back a lot of the greatness of this country.
Looks like history is repeating itself.
BTW, glad to see you back.
|
|
|
Post by jiminix on Jul 17, 2019 11:20:37 GMT -7
What has Trump said or done to make you think he wants to be like Saudi Arabia? In Saudi Arabia, billionaires run the country. That’s Trump’s preference also. There has never before been an American government headed up by anywhere near so much wealth. Wealth itself is not the problem; the problem is the means of acquiring it and the attitude toward those who don’t have it. Trump is a plutocrat and his government is a plutocracy as much as he can make it so. The only nations Trump has ever expressed admiration for are Saudi Arabia, Russia, North Korea, and China.
|
|
|
Post by jiminix on Jul 17, 2019 11:49:38 GMT -7
Please elaborate, because I see him trying to improve the economy by helping businesses create jobs. The easing of regulations on businesses. Easing taxes has helped businesses grow and expand. It's not kingdom building if Americans are going back to work and his policies are geared more toward protecting American interests. Under Obama unemployment dropped from a high of 10% due to Bush’s disaster down to 4.7%. Under Trump it dropped from 4.7% to 3.7%. I can’t imagine how anyone can think that Trump is better for workers than Obama. Bush’s economists said just before he left office that the damage to the economy was so deep that it would take 10 years to recover. Remember, unemployment was 3.9% when Bush took office. So here we are 10 years later, finally back to Clinton’s unemployment rate. If economists predicted this 10 years ago, I would be hesitant to give Trump any credit for it whatsoever. I’m not convinced Trump wants to help businesses. I think he want to help the biggest corporations that (like the Trump business) do best when they take away the most from the people. Exploitation of the public is not good for the public, it is good for the exploiters. We should keep in mind the consequences of the most prominent rounds of deregulation – the Depression (25% unemployment), the Reagan recessions (10.8%), and the Bush meltdown. No rational politician could be more pro-business than Richard Nixon; but he lived through the Depression, so he understood what Big Business does when not regulated. That’s why he created the E.P.A. It is instructive that our three most ignorant presidents about society, economics, and government – Reagan, Bush, Trump – are the biggest deregulators. We have yet to learn what the consequences of Trump's deregulation will be.
|
|
ranger06
New Member
Posts: 249
Member is Online
|
Post by ranger06 on Jul 17, 2019 11:59:57 GMT -7
What has Trump said or done to make you think he wants to be like Saudi Arabia? The only nations Trump has ever expressed admiration for are Saudi Arabia, Russia, North Korea, and China.
And obviously France as the inspiration for the latest 4th of July celebration.
|
|
|
Post by badman on Jul 17, 2019 17:18:49 GMT -7
I don't think so, Hoofie. (original question) My advice is for all the candidates' supporters to save their money
|
|
|
Post by hoofie on Jul 18, 2019 9:48:38 GMT -7
<Gasp> The 2008 recession was started with the Community Reinvestment Act ram rodded by Clinton in the 90s, then loosened up a bit by the congress circa 2005. If you look at stock market indicators they took a dive after election day in 2008 due to confidence or lack thereof in the newly elected white house. The Obama "recovery" was the most sluggish in history bogged down in new taxes & regulations, Obamacare, and Billions wasted trying to "start" the economy. (cash for clunkers, stimulus, investments in solar companies, to name a few.) Nothing spurred the economy until election day 2016 and has continued for the most part since. Confidence and deregulation has contributed. Imagine what could have happened if Trump were not picking fights with his haters.
Name something the previous administration did that actually spurred growth. Also, remember, 2009 & 2010 the Democrats controlled all 3 houses of the Federal government including a filibuster proof Senate and all they managed to get done is send the healthcare system into a tailspin with thousands of pages of regulations and laws.
|
|
|
Post by badman on Jul 18, 2019 16:13:06 GMT -7
Good post, Hoofie, although I don't think Trump spends much time worrying about these "fights". It seems to me to be more of a recreational fix.
|
|
|
Post by jiminix on Jul 18, 2019 22:48:30 GMT -7
<Gasp> The 2008 recession was started with the Community Reinvestment Act ram rodded by Clinton in the 90s, then loosened up a bit by the congress circa 2005. If you look at stock market indicators they took a dive after election day in 2008 due to confidence or lack thereof in the newly elected white house. The Obama "recovery" was the most sluggish in history bogged down in new taxes & regulations, Obamacare, and Billions wasted trying to "start" the economy. (cash for clunkers, stimulus, investments in solar companies, to name a few.) Nothing spurred the economy until election day 2016 and has continued for the most part since. Confidence and deregulation has contributed. Imagine what could have happened if Trump were not picking fights with his haters. Name something the previous administration did that actually spurred growth. Also, remember, 2009 & 2010 the Democrats controlled all 3 houses of the Federal government including a filibuster proof Senate and all they managed to get done is send the healthcare system into a tailspin with thousands of pages of regulations and laws. I don't know how you do this hoofie, but that's wrong on every point. You'd do better to flip a coin. My advice is get a new source of information. I don't remember what happened in the stock market on election day, but I do remember that the stock market went from 7000 to 20000 while Obama was president. I only mention this because you broght it up. I personally don't believe the stock market is an indicator of how well working class people are doing. The main reason for the crash was that the financial industry under Bush was allow to create all kinds of previously regulated derivative instruments into which they bundled the toxic loans house loans. By being in the bundle, the toxic loans were hidden from view of the buyer of the derivative. The only information about them was their rating from Moody and I believe one other rating agency, who conspired with the financial industry to rate these derivatives AAA instead of "junk" as they should have been. Banks had a feeding frenzy of selling balloon loans to people who had no possibility of making the payments when the balloon hit. There was a woman heading up Bush's economic watchdog agency who sounded the alarm early on that these CDOs and other derivatives were financial frauds. But Paulson had Bush's ear, and told him that investment banks should not be stopped from fraudulent transactions, because the basis of capitalism is "buyer beware". That woman of course was quickly fired. Meanwhile the financial institutions leveraged credit default swaps up to some enormous amount like $50 trillion to try to insure themselves against default of loans that many insiders knew were toxic. It was a gigantic house of cards totally created by the unregulated financial industry. The difference between 2008 and 1929 was that the Republican president still had 3 more years in office after the crash, 3 more years to continue the policies that were the cause of the Depression. If Bush had still had 3 more years in office after his crash, it would have been of a magnitude similar to the Depression. Instead of complaining about a sluggish recovery, we should be grateful we didn't wind up in a soup line. Democrats had their filibuster-proof Senate majority for only a short time, not for 2 years. I thought it was 6 wekks, but Ranger corrected me about that a year or two ago - I believe the correct number was 4 months - maybe you remember, Ranger. Besides that, it 56 Democrats, 2 Independents, and 2 DINOS who usually voted with Republicans.
|
|
|
Post by jiminix on Jul 18, 2019 23:35:53 GMT -7
I don't really like winding up defending Democrats all the time like I seem to do on this forum, because I'm not a big fan of the party. I have my own beliefs about what policies are good for the public and for the preservation of democracy, and the Democratic party seems to have some allegiance to those principles, whereas the Republican party seems to be based on undermining the public good for the benefit of large corporations and the wealthiest people.
I know there's not much likelihood of anybody changing their view of current politicians and parties. My fear is that politics has become so adversarial that our America is in danger. Everybody seems to have chosen teams, and all they care about it beating the other team. I am worried about what our nation will become. For the first time in my life, I am not confident that the country I love will remain a beacon to the world.
|
|