Post by jiminix on May 18, 2017 20:15:47 GMT -7
In another thread, some of us went off topic discussing the reason Southern states seceded. So I'm starting this thread where anyone who has something to say on this topic can appropriately say it. I'll start it off with quotes of the posts on this topic from the other thread. I have deleted the parts that weren't on the topic of the Civil War.
And this: "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races--that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
Let's see if these politically correct folks are willing to be consistent and tear down the statues and memorials made to honor that particular 1860s racist.
There is nothing in Lincoln's words that can be interpreted as advocating for slavery, so it's not relevant to what I said above.
I specifically said above "There is some room to accommodate the effect of prevailing opinion of the times on historical figures." The prevailing opinion of that time was that the white race was superior to all others in every way. The evidence to the contrary had barely begun to emerge, so it is unjust to condemn people of that time for that view. That's quite different from support of slavery.
Only 6% of Southerners were slave owners and of these 5% owned five or fewer and worked beside them in the fields. Are you actually postulating that the motivation of the remaining 94% of Southerners was slavery?
Why don't you look up the "Corwin Amendment" and find out what Lincoln said about it during his first inaugural. Look up Lincoln's letter to Horace Greeley where he said this: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it". Look up Lincoln's efforts to keep slavery intact in all of the border states. Look up Lincoln's desire to ship blacks back to Africa. Or just study his many statements during the debates with Stephen Douglas.
And THEN tell me that you are OK with tearing down Confederate monuments but still want to honor (Lincoln) [name-calling edited out].
There is some room to accommodate the effect of prevailing opinion of the times on historical figures. But by 1860 the argument about slavery was essentially settled worldwide. Advocates of continuing slavery at that late date must suffer the judgment of history. They must not be glorified, and must be condemned whenever they are mentioned.
Who said this at the "late date": I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so. I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is a physical difference between the two, which, in my judgement, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I.... am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.
And this: "I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races--that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race."
Let's see if these politically correct folks are willing to be consistent and tear down the statues and memorials made to honor that particular 1860s racist.
I say "late date" because slavery had been morally condemned going on a thousand years, and by that time legally banned in almost the entire world. Even Mexico, Central America, and South America mostly banned slavery in the 1820s. The U.S. Constitutional ban on importation of slaves after 1804 indicates that it was already assumed by the founding of the nation that states would begin abolishing slavery of their own accord.
There is nothing in Lincoln's words that can be interpreted as advocating for slavery, so it's not relevant to what I said above.
I specifically said above "There is some room to accommodate the effect of prevailing opinion of the times on historical figures." The prevailing opinion of that time was that the white race was superior to all others in every way. The evidence to the contrary had barely begun to emerge, so it is unjust to condemn people of that time for that view. That's quite different from support of slavery.
By the way, I'll debate anyone on the true Southern motivations for secession as well as the legality of that secession. I'm tired of the Northern propaganda and falsehoods that have convinced so many ignorant snowflakes to support the vile purges in NOLA and Virginia.
There's nothing to debate about their motivations for secession. They put it right in their declarations of secession, just as our Declaration of Independence specified our reasons for separating from England. The documents were very up front about the fact that they were leaving in order to preserve their institution of slavery. Go read them if you believe otherwise; most of them are short.
YOU might want to "read them" and make additional efforts to understand what they say. I'll help you. There were only five "declarations" out of 11 Confederate States, and Virginia's says nothing. The South Carolina document dealt with economic issues and state's rights, not slavery. So, these four documents created by a handful of firebrands speak to the motivation of five million souls in the Confederacy? Here's the content breakdown in the four declarations
Only 6% of Southerners were slave owners and of these 5% owned five or fewer and worked beside them in the fields. Are you actually postulating that the motivation of the remaining 94% of Southerners was slavery?
I just gave you a nibble of what Lincoln said. I can keep making the case if you'd like. Lincoln was a tyrant, racist and a murderer.
Why don't you look up the "Corwin Amendment" and find out what Lincoln said about it during his first inaugural. Look up Lincoln's letter to Horace Greeley where he said this: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it". Look up Lincoln's efforts to keep slavery intact in all of the border states. Look up Lincoln's desire to ship blacks back to Africa. Or just study his many statements during the debates with Stephen Douglas.
And THEN tell me that you are OK with tearing down Confederate monuments but still want to honor (Lincoln) [name-calling edited out].
CITATION NEEDED! (on the pie charts above)