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Post by osha on Feb 21, 2018 3:34:46 GMT -7
That's fair.
But I don't think college is a go to thing nowadays. We can blame the government subsidizing these loans and that is a big deal. And the fact college grads are flipping burgers is a sign of how things are. Sure, you can choose from a handful of jobs. But what if you desire something else? It's easy for the boomers to sit there and preach to young people when they graduated college on the cheap and got to choose from anything they wanted while kids today are shoehorned into higher prices and only have a few careers actually hiring.
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Post by hoofie on Feb 21, 2018 6:19:57 GMT -7
That's fair. But I don't think college is a go to thing nowadays. We can blame the government subsidizing these loans and that is a big deal. And the fact college grads are flipping burgers is a sign of how things are. Sure, you can choose from a handful of jobs. But what if you desire something else? It's easy for the boomers to sit there and preach to young people when they graduated college on the cheap and got to choose from anything they wanted while kids today are shoehorned into higher prices and only have a few careers actually hiring. There are many high paying jobs out there that do not involve 4 years of college. Med tech, info tech, auto tech, see the pattern? Also the timeless professions of electrician, plumber, welder, and carpenter. I agree that the government subsidizing state colleges has escalated the tuition boondoggle. High school grads need to stay out of the tattoo and piercing parlors and get into a trade school or OJT program. Oh, and cut their hair, shave their faces, and pull their pants up to heighten their chances of landing a decent career path.
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Post by osha on Feb 21, 2018 6:54:14 GMT -7
It really depends where you live.
Here in Appalachia, there really is no high paying jobs. And even people who work in tech industries make not so much.
I remember when I first come here to this area. I had years of experience in hanging drywall and taping. Made lots of money in northern Ohio where I am from and here every job in that field paid either minimum wage or very slightly above. So we really can't paint the map one color here.
As far as jobs, why do we even pretend that people of today have the same chances as people of years gone by? Factories are becoming more automated as time goes on and that is costing jobs. The majority of jobs are now part time and largely through some temp agency. Then, these jobs that create the poor are more in demand then any job.
Again, it's easy for boomers to sit around and talk about the kids of today when they grew up at a time when the taxes on the rich was much, MUCH higher and new opportunities were cropping up every single day. Now the housing market has slowed so new construction is down, prices are up, college is a risk unless to do what you don't want to, taxes on the working is up and the list could go on. The value of the dollar is now so low we are close to having no value at all. Of course a Fiat currency always ends up there. Most Americans have no savings.
We are a mess. And my mother who is a boomer gets offended when I say the world will be a better place when all the boomers are dead or retired. The boomers have destroyed this nation and they did it on the backs of their grandchildren and now the have the gonads to look at those grandchildren and tell them to buck up.
It's very easy for a generation who had it all to look at another generation and think much less of them.
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Post by ranger06 on Feb 21, 2018 7:43:32 GMT -7
It's very easy for a generation who had it all to look at another generation and think much less of them. So why are you looking at the boomers and thinking less of them? College has always been a risk. Nothing guaranteed you a job, much less a career after graduation. You might want to poll older college grads you know to see if their career is anywhere near their college major. Now to your "taxes on the working is up" claim. Here is an interesting interactive chart where you can enter your 2012 taxable income and see what its equivalence was back then and its tax rate. qz.com/74271/income-tax-rates-since-1913/ My taxable income in 2012 was about $50,000 and was about the equivalent of $12,400 in '76, the year I graduated. It's considerably higher than what I was making and at 22.1% taxed. In 2012 that same $50,000 is taxed at 17.1%. Your claim doesn't hold up. $12,400 taxed at 22.1% is hardly an increase compared to $50,000 taxed at 17.1%.
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Post by osha on Feb 21, 2018 8:05:44 GMT -7
Taxes is the whole gamut. The taxes on Americans is higher when we calculate all outgoing monies. But that is not that important.
College is of course a risk, but it is much higher today then ever. More college graduates are working crap jobs because the job market is not growing. If anything, the job market is shrinking and there are more crap jobs and not enough good jobs.
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Post by ranger06 on Feb 21, 2018 11:15:51 GMT -7
Taxes is the whole gamut. The taxes on Americans is higher when we calculate all outgoing monies. But that is not that important. College is of course a risk, but it is much higher today then ever. More college graduates are working crap jobs because the job market is not growing. If anything, the job market is shrinking and there are more crap jobs and not enough good jobs. Of course the taxes are higher when you calculate all outgoing monies, but your claim was ""taxes on the working is up". Up from what? Not so for federal income taxes. The $50K I quoted was pretty close to the median taxable income for 2012 and there was a 5% federal income tax drop. All the other taxes would depend on where you're living. Here in Alabama my military retirement isn't state taxed, nor will my teacher's retirement. My disability compensation has never been taxed at all. Obviously they're not up. College cost is higher but so are wages. Garbage in results in garbage out. There are a bunch of crap degrees. What do you expect to get upon graduation with a crap degree? Colleges are businesses that are dependent on the law of supply and demand. If the demand for their product is high, costs will rise. Several colleges have seen a good size drop in their freshman classes. They will have to figure out if the students just don't exist or their product is too expensive and lacks value. And the job market shrinking? Have you been paying attention to the unemployment rate these past many months?
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Post by osha on Feb 21, 2018 22:39:39 GMT -7
Of course household incomes are higher and in some places individual incomes. In the 60s one worker could support a household and today it takes 2. Then we wonder why children who are not raised by parents shoot up schools left and right. This is this problem, people ignore the bigger issues. Wages have come nowhere close to following inflation and the right goes on about finding this job or that. Do you believe that if people walked off these low wage jobs that are everywhere the world would be better? Nobody working in retail, nobody working in fast food, nobody working at your local gas station, nobody working at your hotels, nobody working in daycares... The fact of the matter is there are much more low wage jobs and these jobs need to be filled. And this country is creating more of these jobs on the backs of the poor and to the benefit of the rich and investors. Job market? www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/07/04/econ-j04.htmlwww.mybudget360.com/part-time-work-us-canada-japan-part-time-employment/And what about the people who left the job market these employment statistics ignore?: www.epi.org/publication/missing-workers/Gave up because of weak low wage jobs. We have a surplus of college grads and a surplus of low wage and part time jobs. And we have the highest school loan debt in history. These college graduates are sleeping on a friends couch and flipping burgers and defaulting on their loans because there is no way to make a virtual house payment for 15 years and support yourself on crap wages. I don't buy into statistics because there are motivations for people to shift people into belief. Believe in that green paper you have that is worth no more then the paper it is printed on because things are going really good, we promise. And somehow the boomers forget how nice that home cooked family meal was every night while dad was working and mom was tending house and dinner. Wages be damned, that's a pipe dream for far to many people today.
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Post by hoofie on Feb 22, 2018 6:52:08 GMT -7
Osha, you seem stuck on the idea that the purpose of government is to provide for the citizens. That's what they lead you to believe. Read the constitution. There are no provisions for everyone to have a high paying job. Our free markets provide the opportunities. In 2005, after Katrina, the fast food industry was forced to pay $15/hr and up because that what the clean up jobs were paying. A large portion of the population either hadn't returned, or they had insurance covering their losses. That's how an economy works. As long as someone is willing to fill a job position at a certain rate that's what the rate is. I ended up in Lafayette, LA because there were no companies near my home in Lake View, AL that would pay what I needed to have for my talent. I turned down an offer in Montgomery because it wasn't enough money.
Which leads me into the next part of my rant. If jobs aren't paying well in your area, move. I moved from the Rust Belt of Ohio to Southwest Mississippi to further my career and make more money. I moved to Tuscaloosa County Alabama to take a job in Birmingham. When the economy crashed in late 2008 the company in Birmingham sold off the division I worked in and the buyer didn't want me.
There is a surplus of college grads because State colleges with the backing of Federal student loans made it easy. Graduating with a liberal arts degree will get you an entry level job at McDonald's or Walmart. My daughter got her Masters degree in Social Work at the University of Alabama in 2006. After turning down a $50K job with the State of Alabama, she took a job at a church supported women's shelter in New Orleans where the pay wasn't as good but they provided her room and board and the opportunity to get a multi-state license. She was there for many years and 2 years ago, accepted a job in her home town, as a social worker at the regional hospital in Southwest Mississippi.
Moral of the story: If you are going to get a college degree, get one that will advance you in our society. If there are no good paying jobs where you are, move.
My daughter worked at Starbucks while in school and grad school while living with us. We were able to pay for a few summers, out of pocket, but after scholarships, her final loan was under $20K which she paid off about a year ago. I washed dishes in a truck stop, cleaned swimming pools, did what I had to do to get into the work force. The driving force is that it pays the bills for now while I develop a work ethic and marketable talent. It's a means to and end, not the other way around.
The intended purpose of government is to provide safety, education, and infrastructure for its citizens. We have the right to pursue happiness, not have it provided for us.
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Post by ranger06 on Feb 22, 2018 19:07:43 GMT -7
Of course household incomes are higher and in some places individual incomes. In the 60s one worker could support a household and today it takes 2. Then we wonder why children who are not raised by parents shoot up schools left and right. This is this problem, people ignore the bigger issues. Wages have come nowhere close to following inflation and the right goes on about finding this job or that. Do you believe that if people walked off these low wage jobs that are everywhere the world would be better? Nobody working in retail, nobody working in fast food, nobody working at your local gas station, nobody working at your hotels, nobody working in daycares... The fact of the matter is there are much more low wage jobs and these jobs need to be filled. And this country is creating more of these jobs on the backs of the poor and to the benefit of the rich and investors. Job market? www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/07/04/econ-j04.htmlwww.mybudget360.com/part-time-work-us-canada-japan-part-time-employment/And what about the people who left the job market these employment statistics ignore?: www.epi.org/publication/missing-workers/Gave up because of weak low wage jobs. We have a surplus of college grads and a surplus of low wage and part time jobs. And we have the highest school loan debt in history. These college graduates are sleeping on a friends couch and flipping burgers and defaulting on their loans because there is no way to make a virtual house payment for 15 years and support yourself on crap wages. I don't buy into statistics because there are motivations for people to shift people into belief. Believe in that green paper you have that is worth no more then the paper it is printed on because things are going really good, we promise. And somehow the boomers forget how nice that home cooked family meal was every night while dad was working and mom was tending house and dinner. Wages be damned, that's a pipe dream for far to many people today. Really? I've already posted that I've been the sole breadwinner in my family. My kids have never darken a daycare's doorway as my wife and I trust the raising of our kids to no one. This also saved us big bucks in not supporting a daycare operation, not to mention the constant new clothes for die Frau. I know a bunch of folks working in retail, in fast food, the local gas station, hotels, (but none in daycare) and they are happy to work there. They know if they don't like it they can work elsewhere. At one time I worked those jobs too. I also work with the Hispanic community in my church and they would be more than happy to work at these jobs. The art of living within their means has not been lost on them. "We have a surplus of college grads and a surplus of low wage and part time jobs". I invite you to take a gander at some of the job boards and job search services like Zip Recruiter. There are tons of jobs searching for college grads, but not in the dummy majors area. No mercy on those deadbeat college grads. They failed at the simple task of getting a degree that was in demand in the market place. Would you by an expensive car that you knew to be a lemon? Also, they lived beyond their means by becoming heavily in debt. Would you living in poverty buy a $600,000 house? The dummies should have worked their way through school. So you don't buy into statistics. Your loss. But I well remember the home cooked family meals while I was working and die Frau was tending house. Of course, this didn't happen all that often as I was doing mundane things like being overseas in a combat zone while others like you were safe at home.
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Post by ranger06 on Feb 22, 2018 19:09:57 GMT -7
The intended purpose of government is to provide safety, education, and infrastructure for its citizens. We have the right to pursue happiness, not have it provided for us. Quite right. Our country gives you the freedom to succeed and the freedom to fail.
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Post by John Doe on Feb 23, 2018 7:04:02 GMT -7
so what does the right wingers think we should be doing with all the mentally and physically disabled, elderly, and working poor? we have these social programs because we had elderly and disabled people dying in the streets during the great depression, charities were overwhelmed and couldn't keep up with demand, and it was rapidly becoming a public health issue and public crisis. you want to see that again? and this issue was already argued in the supreme court several times over the last 90 years starting with the SS act and then when Medicaid and Medicare was created and they were deemed constitutional. SCOTUS decisions are OK as long as they ride along your ideology but the moment they deviate from your ideology then it is a wrong decision. you don't want to lose your right to have a shootout at the OK corral on a daily basis i don't want to lose my healthcare i don't want may lady who's a nurse to loose her job or take a deep pay cut due to entitlement cuts, we are barely making it as it is and my health is unstable.
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Post by ranger06 on Feb 23, 2018 7:28:04 GMT -7
so what does the right wingers think we should be doing with all the mentally and physically disabled, elderly... Since I am pyhsically disabled and fast approaching elderly status, what do you left wingers think? Better question, do you think at all? BTW, capital letters that start sentences are your friends.
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Post by osha on Feb 23, 2018 12:23:33 GMT -7
The government failed the people when it backed away from real money and adopted monopoly money. Rome anyone?
Sure, our Constitution does not have any provisions for helping the people. But wouldn't we say that capitalism was a sort of experiment back at the time of the writing? Was inflation robbing people back in that time? What about the rich? Were they near as rich as they are now?
Instead of looking at things and basing those things off your own old success, why not put on some thinking glasses and look at the world as it is now?
Suggesting people move. Why should people have to pack up their life and leave family in order to find a decent job? Do we as people make it our job to chase riches in order to make the rich even richer? Why is that my or your job? Why can't we gripe about wages not following inflation?
The right wing likes to bark about how they made it in a time of more opportunity. How many media companies were around in the 1960s? Or how about oil companies? Or how about retail businesses? Even in my mid 40s , I remember many little ma and pa shops all over the place and now not so much because the rich is gobbling up everything. So we have become a world of haves and we are being reduced to a world of have nots. And move is the answer? Fill up all the cities and just shut down rural America? That's not my job.
How much was insurance in 1960? And the magic one, what was the tax rate on the rich? Come on, anyone who has 2 brains cells to rub together can tell this country is falling apart and job are going with it. I even remember back in the late 80s and early 90s when new housing was going up everywhere. What happened? Why is this not the case today?
Sure, you did it and people today are just cry baby liberals. How about we open our eyes and see that your very own grand kids might never know what it is like to own a home? Or a new vehicle and they probably won't live as long as you do. But hey, life is good right? You worked all you life and got your job when WW2 ended and all those military men were coming home and using their money to start an economy. Now the men of the Iraq war are home and they have no money to start anything. But we are doing great I tell ya just great. We should not get to live the American dream and find a home where we desire and live well, no instead we are reduced to having a job chasing jobs that more then likely pay crap anyways.
And you ask if us people with compassion think at all? I would say yes we think, outside your box.
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Post by ranger06 on Feb 23, 2018 14:56:38 GMT -7
The government failed the people when it backed away from real money and adopted monopoly money. Rome anyone? Sure, our Constitution does not have any provisions for helping the people. But wouldn't we say that capitalism was a sort of experiment back at the time of the writing? Was inflation robbing people back in that time? What about the rich? Were they near as rich as they are now? Instead of looking at things and basing those things off your own old success, why not put on some thinking glasses and look at the world as it is now? Suggesting people move. Why should people have to pack up their life and leave family in order to find a decent job? Do we as people make it our job to chase riches in order to make the rich even richer? Why is that my or your job? Why can't we gripe about wages not following inflation? The right wing likes to bark about how they made it in a time of more opportunity. How many media companies were around in the 1960s? Or how about oil companies? Or how about retail businesses? Even in my mid 40s , I remember many little ma and pa shops all over the place and now not so much because the rich is gobbling up everything. So we have become a world of haves and we are being reduced to a world of have nots. And move is the answer? Fill up all the cities and just shut down rural America? That's not my job. How much was insurance in 1960? And the magic one, what was the tax rate on the rich? Come on, anyone who has 2 brains cells to rub together can tell this country is falling apart and job are going with it. I even remember back in the late 80s and early 90s when new housing was going up everywhere. What happened? Why is this not the case today? Sure, you did it and people today are just cry baby liberals. How about we open our eyes and see that your very own grand kids might never know what it is like to own a home? Or a new vehicle and they probably won't live as long as you do. But hey, life is good right? You worked all you life and got your job when WW2 ended and all those military men were coming home and using their money to start an economy. Now the men of the Iraq war are home and they have no money to start anything. But we are doing great I tell ya just great. We should not get to live the American dream and find a home where we desire and live well, no instead we are reduced to having a job chasing jobs that more then likely pay crap anyways. And you ask if us people with compassion think at all? I would say yes we think, outside your box. Who cares what box you claim to think outside of or even your imagined compassion, the proof is in the pudding. I'm enjoying the American dream, you're not. But be happy with the lot you chose. Since you won't open your eyes as to what people do that are successful, look at nature. What do animals do when the food or water supply runs low? Do they sit around on their lazy butts and cry, blame the government, blame earlier generations or gripe because they think others got it better? No, they move. If they think as you do, they die. What do animals do when there are too many predators? They move. Becoming something else's meal isn't part of their survival plan. What do animals do when mates are few? They move. The alternative is the loss of the species. And yes, animals do migrate. Why are you too good to do so? Capitalism wasn't new when the Constitution was written. It's been around since the 16th century (1500s) according to Karl Marx. The Constitution came around in the late 1780s. It was also in early Islam (700s). en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CapitalismInflation has been with us since coins were first minted. Even China had it with paper money. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InflationNo, I didn't work all my life and got my job when WW2 ended and all those military men were coming home and using their money to start an economy. I wasn't even born yet. Besides, I am one of the men from the Iraq wars who came home and am doing great with all the money I saved. So are a whole bunch of my buddies.
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Post by hoofie on Feb 23, 2018 15:38:42 GMT -7
Ah, Ranger, you're being a little too transparent there.
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