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Post by hoofie on Jun 8, 2017 14:08:12 GMT -7
Some folks just can't see the forest because of all them dang trees keep getting in the way.
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Post by osha on Jun 8, 2017 14:38:39 GMT -7
Some folks just can't see the forest because of all them dang trees keep getting in the way. Should I post my collection of my radar software? I even own a Davis weather station. Life long hobby and I have much knowledge about weather .
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Post by Entimos on Jun 8, 2017 15:07:38 GMT -7
I gave no standard to judge me by. But, you did give that standard. I don't care how the government spends money when it comes to helping people. Waste I agree is an issue. But when you align with a religion that is supposed to help people including the poor and you are so caught up in what the government does bad with money instead of being caught up in how the government helps people, you, again, are not following what your religion teaches. If you support cutting programs you support throwing people under the bus. That is not caring about other people and you don't seem to understand that. Feel free and correct me. Because if I have to quote the bible to make a point I will. And that would be using your standard that you asked to be guaged by. And as I have said, cut waste and that's fine. What bothers me is this mentality that goes on about "not with my tax money". Like taxes are going to vanish and you are going to get "your" money back. I've already corrected you multiple times, but evidently facts have no effect on you at all. Christians help people far more selflessly and far more often than any of the vile, hateful atheists and their liberal allies who despise us for our morality and generosity. Hoofie and I both have given you evidence of that undeniable truth. Your intransigence in the face of all of the refutations that we have offered means that you are responding emotionally rather than intellectually. That's the standard that we must judge you by. Cutting programs is not equivalent to a lack of caring any more than withholding something from your child means that you don't care. Nor does it mean that conservatives and Christians are less concerned about the plight of the poor and elderly; let's see if you can produce any evidence to counter that fact. I doubt it. If you truly cared about those people, you would join me in calling for reform of a system that keeps them dependent on that corrupt scheme. Here's the real reason that welfare has exploded:
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Post by John Doe on Jun 8, 2017 15:13:18 GMT -7
Social Security which was the original topic is not means tested welfare like SNAP, Medicaid, AFDC, etc. it is insurance that is paid into by working and is suppose to be there if needed and not subject to cuts at the whims of congressional bureaucrats who enjoy comprehensive tax payer funded lifetime benefits!!!
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Post by osha on Jun 8, 2017 15:23:20 GMT -7
Yes, and many times I hit you back with a fact you ignore and I will judge you two by that if need be.
Listen vey carefully:
The homeless problem can NOT be solved by the compassion of others because it has not worked before, ever. The elderly and disabled cannot be supported by compassion because it has happened NEVER. Health of the elderly and poor and disabled will never be covered by compassion because it has NEVER been. In FACT on health, you pay more for those who can't pay in the old system.
You ignore me while I say cut waste and keep the programs and that is the standard I am holding you to.
We all know the teach a man to fish thing. Teach a cancer patient to die could be added to that list. Teach a child to starve could be added to that list. Teach a disabled person to die could be added to that list. Teach a person to starve could be added to that list.
Right, good God loving people we have here.
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Post by Entimos on Jun 8, 2017 15:29:59 GMT -7
Some folks just can't see the forest because of all them dang trees keep getting in the way.
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Post by osha on Jun 8, 2017 15:42:27 GMT -7
So, let me get this right.
Today in a world where costs are up and rising, college is at an all time high and more graduates are flipping burgers, jobs are shrinking, retail chains are closing doors, China is leading the world in manufacturing....
We want to look at people and say get off the government nipple? Think about this for a minute... The gas station needs an attendant, Walmart needs a cashier, daycares need to run, fast food joints need people and so on. What do these jobs have in common you may ask? They all pay low WAGES and they create government dependent workers. Well Osha, why can't they work 3 jobs? Well, the divorce rate would skyrocket and would end up with fatherless children who would depend on the system. Hogwash Osha, the father could pay support. But the father works a low wage job and don't have the money. Then what? We goes to prison or jail and lives off the system in another way.
See? The logic is flawed. Tell me again how these people get off the government nipple. Do you support a living wage? If so, bravo. Do you support help for the disabled and elderly? Do you support your greedy little taxes going to give children medical? Because by and large, there is a party that don't. And neither party is near perfect but at least one party understands the issues.
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Post by Entimos on Jun 8, 2017 15:47:10 GMT -7
Yes, and many times I hit you back with a fact you ignore and I will judge you two by that if need be. Listen vey carefully: The homeless problem can NOT be solved by the compassion of others because it has not worked before, ever. The elderly and disabled cannot be supported by compassion because it has happened NEVER. Health of the elderly and poor and disabled will never be covered by compassion because it has NEVER been. In FACT on health, you pay more for those who can't pay in the old system. You ignore me while I say cut waste and keep the programs and that is the standard I am holding you to. We all know the teach a man to fish thing. Teach a cancer patient to die could be added to that list. Teach a child to starve could be added to that list. Teach a disabled person to die could be added to that list. Teach a person to starve could be added to that list. Right, good God loving people we have here. Listen even more carefully: FDR created the first large scale entitlement program in the U.S. What exactly do you think happened before 1932? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_programs_in_the_United_StatesAnd your "teach a _______ to die" meme is so nonsensical and inane that I must ponder the shallowness of your knowledge on this subject. Is that the "standard" that we need to hold you to?
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Post by osha on Jun 8, 2017 15:59:34 GMT -7
Yes, and many times I hit you back with a fact you ignore and I will judge you two by that if need be. Listen vey carefully: The homeless problem can NOT be solved by the compassion of others because it has not worked before, ever. The elderly and disabled cannot be supported by compassion because it has happened NEVER. Health of the elderly and poor and disabled will never be covered by compassion because it has NEVER been. In FACT on health, you pay more for those who can't pay in the old system. You ignore me while I say cut waste and keep the programs and that is the standard I am holding you to. We all know the teach a man to fish thing. Teach a cancer patient to die could be added to that list. Teach a child to starve could be added to that list. Teach a disabled person to die could be added to that list. Teach a person to starve could be added to that list. Right, good God loving people we have here. Listen even more carefully: FDR created the first large scale entitlement program in the U.S. What exactly do you think happened before 1932? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_programs_in_the_United_StatesAnd your "teach a _______ to die" meme is so nonsensical and inane that I must ponder the shallowness of your knowledge on this subject. Is that the "standard" that we need to hold you to? Well, your president wants to kick people off insurance. Do people die without insurance? You decide. I actually believe your logic is very flawed. You read a book that teaches you to love but you go on about hurting others in the name of teaching people to fish. I refuse to have this back and forth with you. This will be my last post to you directed to you in this thread. But one more time, for the hopful sake of understanding. Homeless people have always been a problem and there is no amount of compassion that will solve homelessness or even any of the problems we have had for a long time. Easy to understand I believe.
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Post by John Doe on Jun 8, 2017 17:16:30 GMT -7
Here is the Social Welfare History Project they are archiving the history of these social programs and why we have them. it is a very good resource of the history of social welfare i have seen to date. all these programs have a reason and history behind them. they were created out of need for them.
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Post by osha on Jun 8, 2017 17:34:00 GMT -7
Here is the Social Welfare History Project they are archiving the history of these social programs and why we have them. it is a very good resource of the history of social welfare i have seen to date. all these programs have a reason and history behind them. they were created out of need for them. Thanks for the link. Full of information and bookmarked.
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Post by osha on Jun 8, 2017 19:01:28 GMT -7
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Post by hoofie on Jun 9, 2017 6:14:15 GMT -7
Listen even more carefully: FDR created the first large scale entitlement program in the U.S. What exactly do you think happened before 1932? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_programs_in_the_United_StatesAnd your "teach a _______ to die" meme is so nonsensical and inane that I must ponder the shallowness of your knowledge on this subject. Is that the "standard" that we need to hold you to? Well, your president wants to kick people off insurance. Do people die without insurance? You decide. I actually believe your logic is very flawed. You read a book that teaches you to love but you go on about hurting others in the name of teaching people to fish. I refuse to have this back and forth with you. This will be my last post to you directed to you in this thread. But one more time, for the hopful sake of understanding. Homeless people have always been a problem and there is no amount of compassion that will solve homelessness or even any of the problems we have had for a long time. Easy to understand I believe. You continue to carp about Christians, yet say nothing when I provide multiple links showing government interference in charital activities. You might argue that the cities wanted proper permits, but the bottom line is that the government wanted the permit fees, because if safety was an issue they could require proper permitting and inspections and waive the fee. It's about control and money. Arresting Christians for feeding the homeless? Really? You continue to also carp about how the President wants to "kick people off of insurance", your words, not mine. The current plan, The ACA, is imploding. There are counties in multiple states that have no providers and the list grows every month. The ACA was never going to work, according to its author. I don't know of any politician that wants to kick people off of insurance, but by not requiring every citizen to purchase insurance many will choose not to have coverage. Medicaid was expanded to help the states pay for ACA requirements for the poor. The states knew that the Federal subsidy would end after 3 years. The proposed plan, rolls back the expansion, but they probably will keep it in place and leave it up to the states to pay for it if they want to keep it. Like it or not the ACA is a spectacular failure and most on the left are happy to sit on their hands and do as much as possible to ensure failure of any replacement. President Trump probably wishes he waited another year or so for the ACA to collapse, and it was suggested to him. Keep pounding away and running interference, rather than trying to help with a solution. Continue to blame others for your own failures. Eventually none of it will matter. Since this thread is supposed to be about Social Security, I have said over and over, that I would rather have the option to direct some or all of my contributions to a personal IRA. The employer's contributions can continue to go to the Fed for SSI, and other needs. Did you realize that if you saved $22 per week for 30 years at 6% it would grow to about $90,000? That's the power of compound interest. That's why SS will never achieve its full potential.
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Post by osha on Jun 9, 2017 6:44:55 GMT -7
I did say something about the charity. These cities don't want charity and they want the homeless to leave. I know this.
I keep saying that compassion has never solved homelessness and yet that gets ignored and it's true. I have also said that compassion will never house all the elderly, never feed all the poor, never feed the elderly, never provide medical for the poor and elderly and disabled. But that gets ignored.
You want people to save money for retirement. When 55% of the nation has less then $500 to cover an emergency, wages are stagnant, millennials are the first generation making less then their parents, as per the link I posted above, people would need to make over $22 an hour to live in many places and a minimum wage job can only support a apartment in five counties in this whole country. These are facts and yet they go ignored.
So, save money for retirement and screw the people who have paid into the system and were promised a result for the money they paid.
And yes, I do go on about Christians because they are supposed to care about others. And they are probably supposed to do it more then any other section of society. And yet what they do is come up with solutions that would not work in our current economy.
Another thing everyone seems to miss is something as simple as food stamps. Let's say our government cuts 10 billion dollars from the food stamp program. Now, that's 10 billion less dollars being pumped back into the economy. That would cost jobs. Even if the whole 10 billion did not directly effect the people. Even if it is only a portion, demand drops, profits drop and that is all a formula for lose of jobs.
And we are still ignoring the elephant in the room.
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Post by JMHO on Jun 9, 2017 6:59:17 GMT -7
No one is doubting that people show compassion. They do. What I am saying is that compassion alone is not going to solve the problems. Getting rid of programs only makes the problems worse. Further separating what compassion could not solve. Perhaps if more people, the ones not giving now, began giving of their time and money to charity, the problems would begin to see a decline. I cannot see raising taxes if $.70 of every $1 raised now is being wasted. Clearly, the money is already there; it simply needs to be utilized more efficiently by eliminating bureaucratic waste. In the meantime, any shortfalls could come from those not currently showing compassion with their own wallets.
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