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Post by osha on May 1, 2017 10:30:46 GMT -7
These kids also pay good money for their education. As I said, it's a catch 22 in my book. How many teachers would have forced these kids to listen to these speakers for a test or grade of some sort? That would have happened to some degree. I support free speech but I also support the freedom of choice. And your freedom of speech is not more important then my freedom to choose. If your free speech forced me to endure something I don't enjoy, your infringing on me. It's a catch 22. Who is forcing these kids? No one. Even if a professor required attendance by some students, no one is required to adhere to or believe in those ideas. On the other hand, the despicable snowflakes that threatened violence have made their ideas mandatory through the threat of violence. The cancellation of the Coulter event took that choice away from those individuals who wanted to hear her ideas; doesn't that "infringe" on them? "With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."
So your basically saying: What you believe in should be adhered to but what others believe makes them snowflakes. This is what your saying in a nutshell. It's all right for people to be forced to listen to something they don't want to (because they are not forced to believe those ideas) But when people force your ideas to shut up, they are snowflakes. So one wants to cram their crap down your throat and the other wants the crammer to shut up. Isn't freedom wonderful?
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Post by hoofie on May 1, 2017 10:43:28 GMT -7
My point is, if I am a paying consumer somewhere, I should not be forced to listen to anything I don't want to. Really? So when you show up at WalMart they should change the background music to whatever you like? "Hey, osha is here! Put on Madonna quick, that's his favorite." That's called arrogance. I'll say again, the Coulter event was sponsored and organised by conservative campus students. These students also pay tuition and fees to attend the school. What about their rights? What does that even mean? Free speech and freedom of choice are separate but equal rights, but with social limits. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater if there is no fire. You can choose whether or not to shop at WalMart, but you cannot demand that they play Madonna for you just because you don't like their background music. We are, after all, a free society. This means that your wants or likes should not infringe upon others that choose to not join your interests.
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Post by osha on May 1, 2017 10:50:35 GMT -7
My point is, if I am a paying consumer somewhere, I should not be forced to listen to anything I don't want to. Really? So when you show up at WalMart they should change the background music to whatever you like? "Hey, osha is here! Put on Madonna quick, that's his favorite." That's called arrogance. I'll say again, the Coulter event was sponsored and organised by conservative campus students. These students also pay tuition and fees to attend the school. What about their rights? What does that even mean? Free speech and freedom of choice are separate but equal rights, but with social limits. You can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater if there is no fire. You can choose whether or not to shop at WalMart, but you cannot demand that they play Madonna for you just because you don't like their background music. We are, after all, a free society. This means that your wants or likes should not infringe upon others that choose to not join your interests. I agree with you and that's why I said it is a catch 22. Saying that one group has the right to force students (through tests or whatnot) to sit through something they don't enjoy is infringing on the rights of others. I don't believe politics should be in schools anyways. But to cover all freedoms in a free world, yes, the kids that want the event should have the event and others should respect that. But, it becomes an issue when things are forced as they would be in a school. Changing the music is a good one lol. I would never advocate for such a thing.
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Post by Entimos on May 2, 2017 7:28:04 GMT -7
So your basically saying: What you believe in should be adhered to but what others believe makes them snowflakes. This is what your saying in a nutshell. It's all right for people to be forced to listen to something they don't want to (because they are not forced to believe those ideas) But when people force your ideas to shut up, they are snowflakes. So one wants to cram their crap down your throat and the other wants the crammer to shut up. Isn't freedom wonderful? What? No, that's not what I am "basically saying" at all. Again, WHO is forcing anyone to listen to something that they don't want to? It's the leftist mob that is using violence to silence any dissent....THEY are forcing their beliefs, not conservatives. Liberal professors force conservative students....students that PAID for the class....to listen to things they don't want to ON A DAILY BASIS. We'll be waiting on your condemnation of these professors with the same fervor that you have demonstrated against a peaceful non mandatory event at Berkley. And people that "force...ideas to shut up" ARE not just snowflakes, they are little leftist despots....amateur liberal fascists who have no respect for the freedoms of others...who use censorship and violent intimidation to stifle the legitimate ideas of others that they disagree with.
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Post by osha on May 2, 2017 11:56:10 GMT -7
So your basically saying: What you believe in should be adhered to but what others believe makes them snowflakes. This is what your saying in a nutshell. It's all right for people to be forced to listen to something they don't want to (because they are not forced to believe those ideas) But when people force your ideas to shut up, they are snowflakes. So one wants to cram their crap down your throat and the other wants the crammer to shut up. Isn't freedom wonderful? What? No, that's not what I am "basically saying" at all. Again, WHO is forcing anyone to listen to something that they don't want to? It's the leftist mob that is using violence to silence any dissent....THEY are forcing their beliefs, not conservatives. Liberal professors force conservative students....students that PAID for the class....to listen to things they don't want to ON A DAILY BASIS. We'll be waiting on your condemnation of these professors with the same fervor that you have demonstrated against a peaceful non mandatory event at Berkley. And people that "force...ideas to shut up" ARE not just snowflakes, they are little leftist despots....amateur liberal fascists who have no respect for the freedoms of others...who use censorship and violent intimidation to stifle the legitimate ideas of others that they disagree with. I believe ALL politics should be out of school. That means liberal and conservative. And yes, I believe both sides are wrong on the issue. I am not liberal or conservative and don't feel that either of those political ideologies should be force fed to anyone. And violence is never the answer in these situations. It's wrong in my book to complain about liberal teachings and at the same time complain when a right wing speaker can't be guilty of the same thing. How about we support ALL politics being removed from school? That even means liberal professors. Then what we get in return is no catch 22 to start with.
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Post by Entimos on May 2, 2017 12:32:10 GMT -7
I believe ALL politics should be out of school. That means liberal and conservative And yes, I believe both sides are wrong on the issue. I am not liberal or conservative and don't feel that either of those political ideologies should be force fed to anyone. And violence is never the answer in these situations. It's wrong in my book to complain about liberal teachings and at the same time complain when a right wing speaker can't be guilty of the same thing. How about we support ALL politics being removed from school? That even means liberal professors. Then what we get in return is no catch 22 to start with. While the idea of such objectivity is a laudable goal, it is in reality unachievable. If we succeed in teaching the students to think for themselves, they will naturally express their opinions and ideas and we should be glad when they do so. Since we cannot remove all politics without stifling such creativity, we should encourage open respectful discourse from all sides. Let's pursue balance...I would submit that a one time visit by Coulter that no one is forced to attend is a pittance compared to the thousands of instances where the liberals have interjected their dogma in a classroom full of captive young minds.
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Post by osha on May 2, 2017 12:40:20 GMT -7
I believe ALL politics should be out of school. That means liberal and conservative And yes, I believe both sides are wrong on the issue. I am not liberal or conservative and don't feel that either of those political ideologies should be force fed to anyone. And violence is never the answer in these situations. It's wrong in my book to complain about liberal teachings and at the same time complain when a right wing speaker can't be guilty of the same thing. How about we support ALL politics being removed from school? That even means liberal professors. Then what we get in return is no catch 22 to start with. While the idea of such objectivity is a laudable goal, it is in reality unachievable. If we succeed in teaching the students to think for themselves, they will naturally express their opinions and ideas and we should be glad when they do so. Since we cannot remove all politics without stifling such creativity, we should encourage open respectful discourse from all sides. Let's pursue balance...I would submit that a one time visit by Coulter that no one is forced to attend is a pittance compared to the thousands of instances where the liberals have interjected their dogma in a classroom full of captive young minds. It is not. School is there for education. It is not there for anyone to spew political garbage and confuse the situation. Naturally talks will happen of course but it does not have to be representatives of one side or the other spewing garbage teaching nothing. My kids are in school (pre college). And they don't have political speakers coming to their school. And I live in a right wing, bible thumping, dollar store loving utopia in this area.
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Post by Entimos on May 4, 2017 15:42:29 GMT -7
And here's the problem....what a liberal thinks is "spewed political garbage" may be sound principled discourse to others, and THAT'S why we have freedom of speech in this country. So that one side doesn't stifle the ideas that they may not agree with. If liberals truly believed in diversity, they would support a "diversity" of ideas as integral to a well rounded education. Sure they have "political speakers" coming to their schools....we just call them teachers. And let's not pursue that farcical idea that public secondary schools are not liberal indoctrination centers; we know better. Liberals are welcome to free themselves of the "dollar store utopia" by moving north to urban areas where the Democrat led cities are going bankrupt and turning into slums, and thugs are butchering people almost as fast as a liberal can slaughter an unborn child in the local abortion clinic. We conservative Christians who like a bargain would certainly not miss any wine and cheese atheist who didn't like our moral lifestyle.
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Post by osha on May 4, 2017 16:05:30 GMT -7
Well, it's hyperbole to believe that all teachers are liberals spouting garbage. Who said anything about atheists? I happen to hate religion but I am not an atheist, I just don't fall for the bullcrap being taught today. Like, we support Israel? Why? Here ya go: biblicisminstitute.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/is-america-cursed/Are you going to say that the false prophets are right and God lied or are we gonna believe the truth? Oh, and we shall not kill is treated all so like the law of God right? Hypocrites! So instead of making this a argument about unsubstantiated claims that are not proven, like liberal teachings. Why don't we instead not try and push our garbage on the rest of humanity while that very garbage is slanted lies?
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Post by Entimos on May 5, 2017 16:37:37 GMT -7
Well, it's hyperbole to believe that all teachers are liberals spouting garbage. Who said anything about atheists? I happen to hate religion but I am not an atheist, I just don't fall for the bullcrap being taught today. Like, we support Israel? Why? Here ya go: biblicisminstitute.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/is-america-cursed/Are you going to say that the false prophets are right and God lied or are we gonna believe the truth? Oh, and we shall not kill is treated all so like the law of God right? Hypocrites! So instead of making this a argument about unsubstantiated claims that are not proven, like liberal teachings. Why don't we instead not try and push our garbage on the rest of humanity while that very garbage is slanted lies? Who said anything about Israel? Looks like a straw man argument to me. And if you are going to smear something as "slanted lies", please be specific and back up that claim.
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Post by osha on May 5, 2017 16:55:25 GMT -7
Well, it's hyperbole to believe that all teachers are liberals spouting garbage. Who said anything about atheists? I happen to hate religion but I am not an atheist, I just don't fall for the bullcrap being taught today. Like, we support Israel? Why? Here ya go: biblicisminstitute.wordpress.com/2014/07/17/is-america-cursed/Are you going to say that the false prophets are right and God lied or are we gonna believe the truth? Oh, and we shall not kill is treated all so like the law of God right? Hypocrites! So instead of making this a argument about unsubstantiated claims that are not proven, like liberal teachings. Why don't we instead not try and push our garbage on the rest of humanity while that very garbage is slanted lies? Who said anything about Israel? Looks like a straw man argument to me. And if you are going to smear something as "slanted lies", please be specific and back up that claim. Who said some thing about atheists in a conversation about free speech? Oh wait, that was you. And you tried to play the moral high ground by wanted people to align with your ideas. So, I hit your moral, christian high ground with a fact about Israel. And now you proclaim this "a straw man argument to me". So in other words: Osha hit me with the truth in response to what I said and it's making me sad. I want the people here to please think he's grasping at straws to prove a point. Please believe me and don't click the link he posted. Oh, please don't, its straw man. Don't attack a section of society unless you are willing to get a response you may not like. This is not a straw man response, this is a response showing your religions "moral" hypocrisy!
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Post by badman on May 5, 2017 17:07:01 GMT -7
osha, you kind of started that with the bible thumping comment among others. I try to not take any member's post personally, and it works for me. Just a thought.
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Post by osha on May 5, 2017 17:13:44 GMT -7
osha, you kind of started that with the bible thumping comment among others. I try to not take any member's post personally, and it works for me. Just a thought. I don't see that as any kind of insult. To me it's like calling me "buried" when I'm married. Things like that. Slight joke type thing.
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Post by badman on May 5, 2017 17:35:24 GMT -7
OK, but you can look back at your posts to find the "among others" that I mentioned. Start with those statements that start with "what your saying is" or "so in other words" and see if you were possibly mistaken.
I noticed that John Doe liked your reply to Entimos. I didn't.
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Post by osha on May 5, 2017 17:44:33 GMT -7
OK, but you can look back at your posts to find the "among others" that I mentioned. Start with those statements that start with "what your saying is" and see if you were possibly mistaken. I noticed that John Doe liked your reply to Entimos. I didn't. I see nothing wrong with anything I have said at all. I was right, forcing someone to listen to something they don't want to is not freedom. Having the right to say no is freedom. It don't really matter. We cannot talk about freedom and we surely can't talk about morals when one side wants one thing and the other expects another. It's one of those things that's a catch 22 in my book like I have said. As far as morals, I will not claim some kind of moral high ground but I will not buckle and think that others have better moral focus then others. Especially when those claiming a moral high ground have a history of using moral bankrupt ideas to promote hate. If you would like further information, let me know.
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